[Beowulf] Re: "hobbyists" still OT

Vincent Diepeveen diep at xs4all.nl
Wed Jun 25 12:52:56 EDT 2008


Take me correct, myself living outside of the big cities here into a  
city which is surrounded by farmers who have been hit very hard,
i'm not taking a viewpoint on the subsidied exporting of Corn, Rice  
and Wheat.

What i find bad is that these types of products which get produced a  
lot cheaper in 3d world countries, not subsidized,
now are getting used to get subsidy on bio-fuel, as there has been  
set a target on which percentage of energy "must" be green energy.

Even a tiny nation like Netherlands that is not a production nation  
(therefore we consume less power than production nations such as
France, Germany, USA, as factories eat 90% of all power), at its peek  
is consuming about 10000 megawatt of power.

I'm not sure whether the entire production of wheat, corn and rice  
from the USA is even closely enough to produce enough energy for
a tiny nation like the Netherlands, with just 16.5 million inhabitants.

Now calculate how many farmers are involved and how much they need to  
make a year to have a living. Doesn't just transport costs of Wheat  
and Corn
already make it more expensive than the equivalent in coals or  
uranium? Note that here in Europe in case of coals they get  
transported to their
destiny by boat usually.

That minimum cost price for all that wheat, corn and rice is having a  
costprice of tens of billions, whereas the total production on planet  
earth
in potatoes, rice, wheat and corn is not that much bigger than what  
we need to feed ourselves.

Yet from all that wheet and corn produced in entire USA for that huge  
price of tens of billions, you can't even power a tiny nation from  
that price that is a big multiple for what energy centrals buy in  
their coals, gas or low enriched uranium (U235/U238).

Let's be objective whether an energy centrals which can buy in coals  
for just a few dollars for each ton of coals (1 ton = 1000 kilo),
can *benefit* from buying in wheat/corn to burn for their energy  
central to produce. They do it at a big loss as EU rules force them  
here,
idemdito in USA.

Logically therefore only subsidy on bio-fuel causes a lot of Corn/ 
Wheat from 3d world nations to get bought in, as it gets produced a  
lot cheaper there.

That causes a big increase in price, if there is still corn/wheat  
left in those nations.

The subsidy on a single kilowatt hour of bio fuel is a lot more than  
what a poor man in a 3d world country can afford to pay for its wheat.
However the poor man needs to eat just a little, and that's where  
production has been focussing upon past thousands of years.
Hardly producing enough to feed the world population.

Now you want to burn all that for a few pennies of subsidy?

To produce those tens of thousands of megawatts you can never produce  
enough corn. It is a total dead end to use corn and wheat for bio-fuel.

Even solar panels are better than that and have more future, as the  
sun radiates around 1300 watt of power on each square meter.

When i sat in the platform high voltage powerlines, you soon figure  
out one thing and that is that the Energy world is a very complex  
technical world.
It is hard to get experts speak out. I also spoke to an Australian  
researcher who has this viewpoint:
	"coals is so evil, many people die digging up the coals in  
Australia, we really must close those coal mines and just produce  
nuclear fuel".

A very valid viewpoint.

Most experts keep their mouth shut bigtime, afraid for this or that  
interest group. When one or 2 persons say a word,
they directly get from government told that they should shut up as  
they have signed a secrecy act, and that the documents in question
were given a stamp 'secret'. We have dealt with that as well. It is  
very hard to fight against.

That's what limits this discussion too.

In meantime people die in South America as they cannot buy food as it  
has gone too expensive. You could argue
30% of that inflation is caused by socialistic regimes and  
mismanagement perhaps, but the price of it has gone up
dramatically more than that.

If i add into account also what RGB quoted here: "we are soon out of  
U238 as well", then that is of course not a very optimistic thing to  
tell to your citizens.
Have faith, scientists will find a solution is what i told in front  
of the camera.

Yet bio-fuel is not the solution. That just kills right now the poor  
in 3d world nations.

In front of that same camera a director of an energy company did do a  
statement on 'green energy'. Camera's were running, but those fragments
never were broadcasted. Not even used for a newsreport.

Didn't pass censorship i assume.

Vincent

On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Mike Davis wrote:

> Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>> Some 3d world country managers are begging to adress this issue:  
>> "My nations people die,
>> as your bio fuel raises our food prices, the poor are so poor  
>> here, they use that stuff as food
>> and cannot afford it now".
>>
>> USA nor Europe can *never* produce that stuff as cheap as 3d world  
>> countries can.
>>
> Since my uncle held a patent on an Alcohol Fuel still, and my  
> grandfather grew corn, I have a somewhat different view. I'm not  
> sure where your information is coming from. According to http:// 
> www.earth-policy.org/, the US produced 414 Million tons of grain  
> last year. Of that total 81 Million tons were used for fuel and 106  
> Million tons were exported. While it might be less expensive to  
> produce grain in the 3rd world, the top exporter of Corn, Rice and  
> Wheat for the world is the US. http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/ 
> 2008/Update69_data.htm#table10
>
>
> http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/2008/Update69_data.htm#table9
>
> Now since corn prices have been rather stagnant until recently for  
> almost 30 years and since I know farmers that have burned corn for  
> heat rather than sell at a loss. I see the increase in grain prices  
> as neutral. Yes, there are bad results for the third world. But  
> those farmers growing grain deserve a fair price for the work and  
> uncertainty of agriculture.

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